Gary
12-18-2009, 05:53 PM
How do you tell if your Salvation is based on an intellectual knowledge of the requirements of Salvation, or actual faith in what you heard?
Gary
Gary
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12-18-2009, 05:53 PM
12-18-2009, 06:06 PM
Ohh, great question! I'll be coming back to this thread!
12-18-2009, 09:38 PM
(12-18-2009 05:53 PM)Gary Wrote: [ -> ]How do you tell if your Salvation is based on an intellectual knowledge of the requirements of Salvation, or actual faith in what you heard?
Gary
I had the intellectual information years before I gave myself to the Lord.
When I got saved, I had a joy that was, literally, 'unspeakable'. I wanted to go out and do cartwheels in the yard.
While I should not base my faith on experience, it showed me that something had happened.
And then, I started changing: I did things that I'd never done before, like submit to what I felt was the Lord telling me to reconcile with my husband. I was always the 'boss' of the family, and it was a complete turnaround from how I was before.
As time went on, I discovered myself 'changing' in other ways: I no longer wanted to swear or do things that were against what the Bible taught. And when I did go against the word of God, I felt convicted and ashamed, and repented.
I saw that my prayers were answered, and I found myself loving to hear others praying with me, and delighted in hearing how others were saved, or how the Lord worked in their lives. Before my moment of salvation, those things would have bored me to tears.
Finally, when I would pray or sometimes while singing a song of worship for the Lord, I would get a sort of 'chill' feelings down my back and my arms. At times I could feel a warm, glowing sort of peaceful feeling, especially after fervent prayer.
Based upon not only my 'experiences', but the changes in who I was and what I did is enough to show me, without my faith, that something had made changes in me. And I wasn't the one who was making the changes, nor was I able to 'be good' without that inner voice.
Does that answer your question?
Gary
12-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Thank you Sis. That's a pretty good answer.
Gary
Gary
12-18-2009, 10:41 PM
I only wish I knew..
12-19-2009, 03:26 AM
Quote:Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10
I believe Him, I don't just believe in Him like I may or may not believe in the tooth fairy. I believe what He says. If He said it about Himself, it's true. If He said He can do it, He can. If He said He did it, He did. If He said He'll do it, He will. I believe Him. I believe Him over my "lying eyes."
I know my faith is not intellectual because when I'm really honest with myself, I have no real, true, intellectual understanding of how exactly Jesus' death on the cross paid for my sins. I believe Him and trust Him because He said that it did.
The older I get, the more I realize how much I don't really intellectually understand about God and I feel joy and freedom about that. He's such a magnificent Mystery that I can't solve.
I know Him and believe Him and understand He is God.
Gord
12-19-2009, 08:08 AM
Without getting off on any type of theological tangent, I am comfortable know it had nothing to do with anything that I did. If it were left to me, I would perish in Hell.
Natural man, does not have the capacity to intellectually determine his own destiny. Because natural man, is sin.
My comfort comes from His Word not anyone's theology.
Natural man, does not have the capacity to intellectually determine his own destiny. Because natural man, is sin.
My comfort comes from His Word not anyone's theology.
Quote:Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Quote:John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Quote:1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Quote:Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Quote:2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Quote:Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
12-19-2009, 03:38 PM
There have been some very good answers in this thread. I think that the answer will be different in the case of every believer, but there are common principles in God's word that give us very clear insight.
As Lynne was saying, it's not just "believing in" something. I firmly believe, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is a man named Barack Obama. I know a lot about him. But I've never met him; I'm not personally acquainted with him. Many people, including many professing Christians, "believe in" Jesus, and even His resurrection; but even if they've been faithful in church all their lives, they've never met Him. As Gord quoted, "many are called," and they often respond to that call, to some degree: the parable of the sower and the seed comes to mind. But they were not chosen, and, on an experiential level, they've never really received Christ, according to John 1:12.
You can go to church all your life, and still be unsaved. You can memorize long passages from the Bible, or go to seminary, and not be saved. You can "live a Christian life," in ethical terms, and not be saved. But you cannot receive Jesus Christ without being saved: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
So, how do you know that you've really received Him? As Here Am I and Lynne have both said, your assurance comes in many ways, and grows stronger as time goes by - - - at least if you're really trying to follow Him. But there are numerous indices in the book of 1 John that help us:
For one thing, if we're really saved, we keep his commandments. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments (1 John 2:3). We keep them imperfectly, of course, and we're inconsistent; and sometimes certain sins linger in our lives for years before we're totally victorious. This verse isn't talking about "sinless perfection;" it's talking about our desire to obey our Lord, and do the things that please Him. I've known born again heroin addicts: they struggled against the needle, and didn't always win; but shooting heroin was not what they wanted to do. They fought it; they grieved over it; they even doubted their salvation at times; but eventually, because they wanted to do God's commandments, He gave them victory. A Christian sins, but he or she regrets it, unless they harden their heart over a period of time, in which case the Lord has to thump them in some way. But one way or another, a Christian keeps His commandments, even if imperfectly (which is the case with all of us).
A Christian also loves other Christians, and desires their fellowship. (He may not always like the brethren, but he loves them in a way that is part of the fruit of the Spirit.) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes (2:10, 11). A Christian who is deprived of fellowship misses it; yearns for it; feels incomplete without it. Of course, once again, a Christian can harden his heart, and avoid fellowship; but that doesn't happen overnight. The natural (bad choice of words!) tendency of a Christian is to seek out other Christians - - - and enjoy them, and love them. Compare this to the world's attitude toward Christians, and it becomes very clear!
A Christian's prayers get answered. Not always in the way he or she would prefer; I recently wrote about a personal experience in which God said "No" to me. But often, a Christian's prayers are answered in a spectacular way; and, even more often, they're answered in a less spectacular way. (I am not saying that God doesn't hear the prayers of unbelievers, because I know He does; but He has not promised to answer them.) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight (3:22). Much of the Christian life, the process of maturing in Christ, consists of learning to see God's answers to prayer: they're not always as obvious as a fireworks display, but they're always there.
There are other ways of knowing, of course. A Christian will have a desire for God's word; he or she will have a desire to testify and witness for Christ that is almost unbearable at times. There are any number of ways that we can know.
But the most basic way is also the simplest: it is to realize that God is not a liar. If we have come to Him, and asked Him to save us, and received Him, then we have His promise that He has done so: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).
Sometimes, when the victories are slow in coming, and the fellowship is unavailable, and the prayers seem to be bouncing off the ceiling, that's all we have: God's promise.
But what more do we really need?
As Lynne was saying, it's not just "believing in" something. I firmly believe, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is a man named Barack Obama. I know a lot about him. But I've never met him; I'm not personally acquainted with him. Many people, including many professing Christians, "believe in" Jesus, and even His resurrection; but even if they've been faithful in church all their lives, they've never met Him. As Gord quoted, "many are called," and they often respond to that call, to some degree: the parable of the sower and the seed comes to mind. But they were not chosen, and, on an experiential level, they've never really received Christ, according to John 1:12.
You can go to church all your life, and still be unsaved. You can memorize long passages from the Bible, or go to seminary, and not be saved. You can "live a Christian life," in ethical terms, and not be saved. But you cannot receive Jesus Christ without being saved: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
So, how do you know that you've really received Him? As Here Am I and Lynne have both said, your assurance comes in many ways, and grows stronger as time goes by - - - at least if you're really trying to follow Him. But there are numerous indices in the book of 1 John that help us:
For one thing, if we're really saved, we keep his commandments. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments (1 John 2:3). We keep them imperfectly, of course, and we're inconsistent; and sometimes certain sins linger in our lives for years before we're totally victorious. This verse isn't talking about "sinless perfection;" it's talking about our desire to obey our Lord, and do the things that please Him. I've known born again heroin addicts: they struggled against the needle, and didn't always win; but shooting heroin was not what they wanted to do. They fought it; they grieved over it; they even doubted their salvation at times; but eventually, because they wanted to do God's commandments, He gave them victory. A Christian sins, but he or she regrets it, unless they harden their heart over a period of time, in which case the Lord has to thump them in some way. But one way or another, a Christian keeps His commandments, even if imperfectly (which is the case with all of us).
A Christian also loves other Christians, and desires their fellowship. (He may not always like the brethren, but he loves them in a way that is part of the fruit of the Spirit.) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes (2:10, 11). A Christian who is deprived of fellowship misses it; yearns for it; feels incomplete without it. Of course, once again, a Christian can harden his heart, and avoid fellowship; but that doesn't happen overnight. The natural (bad choice of words!) tendency of a Christian is to seek out other Christians - - - and enjoy them, and love them. Compare this to the world's attitude toward Christians, and it becomes very clear!
A Christian's prayers get answered. Not always in the way he or she would prefer; I recently wrote about a personal experience in which God said "No" to me. But often, a Christian's prayers are answered in a spectacular way; and, even more often, they're answered in a less spectacular way. (I am not saying that God doesn't hear the prayers of unbelievers, because I know He does; but He has not promised to answer them.) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight (3:22). Much of the Christian life, the process of maturing in Christ, consists of learning to see God's answers to prayer: they're not always as obvious as a fireworks display, but they're always there.
There are other ways of knowing, of course. A Christian will have a desire for God's word; he or she will have a desire to testify and witness for Christ that is almost unbearable at times. There are any number of ways that we can know.
But the most basic way is also the simplest: it is to realize that God is not a liar. If we have come to Him, and asked Him to save us, and received Him, then we have His promise that He has done so: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).
Sometimes, when the victories are slow in coming, and the fellowship is unavailable, and the prayers seem to be bouncing off the ceiling, that's all we have: God's promise.
But what more do we really need?
12-19-2009, 04:15 PM
Amen, amen, amen. I keep coming back to this thread, but really have nothing to add. My experiences and thoughts have already been detailed in everyone else's posts!
Bro. Luke - hold on to God's promises. I see a tender heart in you that tells me over and over that God has your heart, and not just your head.
Bro. Luke - hold on to God's promises. I see a tender heart in you that tells me over and over that God has your heart, and not just your head.
12-19-2009, 05:40 PM
(12-19-2009 04:15 PM)Laura Wrote: [ -> ]Bro. Luke - hold on to God's promises. I see a tender heart in you that tells me over and over that God has your heart, and not just your head.
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