For many years my Dad and I had an ongoing discussion about Eternal Security. He didn't see the validity of it and I held it was true. We would go back and forth and I held my own against evrything he submitted from the Bible as prrof we aren't eteranally secure. There were two verses he threw at me I could never give an answer for.
Quote:Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Quote:Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I asked many preachers and teachers over the years ablut it and their answers didn't satisfy me.
Then I found out about Rightly Dividing. After gaining a basic understanding the Lord brought these verses to mind. Exodus verses are under the law, Revelation verse is under the Tribulation. Faith plus Work for salvation in each dispenastion. Bingo now that makes sense.
Rightly dividing in my own experience is the best way of understading your Bible and what it is telling you.
Gary
That is a good way to explain the passage. Here is another verse that is worded a little differently
Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, but just to add a different perspective, I've taught these passages from a little different angle.
I teach that everyone who has ever been born has their name written in the Book of the Living, or the Book of Life. "God is not willing that any should perish". Concerning the Church Age, I teach that at the moment a person dies without Christ, they no longer have opportunity to be saved and their name is blotted out of the book of life.
As an aside note, I use this line of reasoning to demonstrate the error of hyper-calvinism.
M2C
Both of these are good answers. It's all a matter of rightly dividing. Some people's names will be blotted out: but not those who received Christ by faith in the Church Age.
A good example is a Christian who takes the mark of the Beast during the Tribulation.
And yes, Daniel, rightly dividing is something that many Calvinists simply don't comprehend. But that's another thread all by itself!
(12-16-2009 01:08 AM)William Wrote: [ -> ]It's all a matter of rightly dividing.
Indeed, Amen. And since we know that all scripture at one point did not have chapters or verses, one must let the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth. And I believe it can only be done in humbleness and prayer.
On a side note, while I was studying last night, I cross-referenced to Revelation 20, and noticed something about the 'book':
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 10:12-15)
There are at least two books mentioned here. How can I tell? Well, in verse 12 it says 'books', and then 'another book, which is the book of life'. One of the books is probably the works book, while another one is the book of life.
Plus John eats a book in Revelation 10, and someone else (was it Jeremiah?) eats a book in the OT.
Just some thoughts...
While doing a search of the word "book" in the book of Revelation I noticed the following thing, and please notice:
Re:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re:21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Please notice that John "saw" actual events, and this one of the most Holy significance, as it relates to God's Great White Throne judgment of those not found in the Lamb's book of life, instead were judged according to "their works". And so I believe that there will be indeed judgment according to the scriptures, in where all believers of all ages will serve as witnesses and judges according to the Word of God.
Yet still let us Pray and Rejoice and Sing all the more and give him All glory, in Jesus Holy name AMEN.
OK so have I got this straight? The blotting out is not talking about salvation it is talking about where we spend eternity?
I am confused now.
Gary
(12-16-2009 01:11 PM)Gary Wrote: [ -> ]OK so have I got this straight? The blotting out is not talking about salvation it is talking about where we spend eternity?
I am confused now.
Gary
Isn't that the same thing?
If you're saved in the Church Age, you will spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus.
If you're saved in the Tribulation, you will spend eternity in New Jerusalem (if you're a Jew) or ? if you're a Gentile believer.
(William, help me out, here!)
If you're not saved, your name is blotted out of the book of life, you are judged by your works (which means you are damned because none of us could keep all the law, and offending in one point means we're guilty of breaking all the law) and your destination is Hell.
I am open to a different 'interpretation' if backed with Scripture, of course!
OK this is the Gary (after he has had a nap and brain is clear) understanding. THe blotting has to do with there being a record in Heaven of our existence for eternity. If we are saved it stays in the book, but if a person hasn't been saved the record of their name/existence is blotted out of that book.
Gary
(12-16-2009 08:41 PM)Gary Wrote: [ -> ]OK this is the Gary (after he has had a nap and brain is clear) understanding. THe blotting has to do with there being a record in Heaven of our existence for eternity. If we are saved it stays in the book, but if a person hasn't been saved the record of their name/existence is blotted out of that book.
Gary
Maybe, kinda. (How's that for an answer?) Their
name is blotted out, but certainly not their existence, because they'll exist forever in Hell. I'm sure that God, being omniscient, is not going to forget that they ever existed, or forget that they're in Hell.
But then, I may be wrong. There are some things that God does forget: like our sins. (Thank you, Lord!) How He manages to forget them, when we remember them, is a mystery that may never be revealed: because, when we see Him, if we ask, "God, how could you forget about that guy I killed?" He'll reply, "What guy?"
Somebody needs to do a study on God's forgetfulness, or the things God forgets.
As for your question, brother, I'm just not sure. I'm not sure that it's explained in Scripture; or, if it is, nobody's found the explanation yet.