AV Bible Believers Fellowship

What happens to someone who denies God?

Can a believer deny God once he/she has believed?

And if that believer does deny God, what is the result?

I was reading 2 Timothy yesterday, and came across this passage:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Verse 11 seems to be self-explanatory: if we are dead in Christ (a saved believer) then we shall live with Him, just as He died and was raised again.

Verse 12 says that if we suffer, we will reign with Jesus, okay. But then it says if we deny Christ, He will deny us...? How is that so? Because the next verse says if we don't believe, He will not deny us, but will be faithful to us.

Verse 12b and 13 seem to contradict.

Peter denied Jesus three times, but Jesus did not deny him.

We are to take up our cross and deny our self in order to follow Jesus: "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

In Matthew 10:33, it is written: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven.", which seems to back up 2 Timothy 2:12b.

Who wants to take a stab at explaining this?

Brother Daniel, I would have thought you'd know this one.

Anyone else?

As I'm in a rather large hurry to get out the door, a detailed explanation is quite beyond me at this time; however, please allow me to point out that not all the denying is in relation to one's eternal destination, as some involves rewards and Millennial blessings. Some will reign with Christ and some won't, based largely on their works. For example, the Judgment Seat of Christ will impact some things very much, as some will enter Heaven "so as by fire" (obviously entrance is not contingent upon their works), and they will be denied certain privileges and rewards that others will receive.

I hope that helps point you in the right direction; if needs be I can attempt to pull Scripture and explain further this evening or some other time.

God bless,

(11-06-2009 09:17 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]Oh I have an answer, It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing, its a matter of there are different views concerning that subject and I've known people to get down right agitated, divisive, and pretty ugly (I never have quite understood that expression) when you don't understand things the same way they do.

We have not yet had that happen on this forum and I was kinda hoping it would stay that way for a while longer. Hence my picture of a can of worms being opened, and my delay in posting any response.

I appreciate that, Bro. Daniel. I don't know why our beloved sister has popped the top on this particular can, but we will discuss it civilly, although we won't all agree. Nobody's gonna get ugly. The passage does seem to contain a contradiction, but only if read in the most superficial manner.

It has the distinction of being perhaps the only passage that seems to teach both for and against eternal security.

Well, some passages do teach against eternal security: they're just not aimed at us. The ones that are aimed at us, which are very clear, teach that a Christian in the church age cannot be lost, period, that's the end of that.

I look forward to Brothers Vince and Daniel's replies, as well as others. For now, let me state a very important principle of Bible study: Never interpret a clear verse in the light of an unclear verse.

John 10:28, 29 are clear: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

2 Tim. 2:11-13 are a bit less clear, on first reading. So, which do accept? Which do you build a doctrine on? What about phrasing, punctuation, and rightly dividing?

We'll discuss this more in due course.

(11-06-2009 01:38 PM)Here Am I Wrote: [ -> ]What happens to someone who denies God?

Can a believer deny God once he/she has believed?

And if that believer does deny God, what is the result?

I was reading 2 Timothy yesterday, and came across this passage:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Verse 11 seems to be self-explanatory: if we are dead in Christ (a saved believer) then we shall live with Him, just as He died and was raised again.

Verse 12 says that if we suffer, we will reign with Jesus, okay. But then it says if we deny Christ, He will deny us...? How is that so? Because the next verse says if we don't believe, He will not deny us, but will be faithful to us.

Verse 12b and 13 seem to contradict.

Peter denied Jesus three times, but Jesus did not deny him.

We are to take up our cross and deny our self in order to follow Jesus: "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

In Matthew 10:33, it is written: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven.", which seems to back up 2 Timothy 2:12b.

Who wants to take a stab at explaining this?

Personally I thank God for Himself,His wonderful self.
I have seen a small few who have been wonderful believers,seen fruit as evidence of the "root" that is Christ in them that helped them produce that fruit and I have seen life rear it's ugly head and some big event happen in their lives that made them turn away from God.
They deny Him and say they don't believe anymore.They have turned to Wiccan New Age beliefs and then to nothing.

But I remember them before they denied Him,I remember how they witnessed to others,how they read their Bibles,went to Church,went to Bible study,how they helped me and others who were new believers..and then it all went wrong for them.
It started out in a creeping kind of slow way,disputes in Bible study over a doctrinal matter,upsets in church,hurts happening from other christians,and in each case a power struggle in the home which hadn't been there before and then the affair,divorce,more hurts as each relationship busts,trouble with kids and where's God? Why dosen't God care? There is no God.
A creeping unbelief to full blown unbelief..I thank God that He is faithful,I thankGod when we believe not He is faithful,I thank God that He cannot deny Himself,I thank God while there is life there is Hope,it ain't over yet,it's not the end of the story.I have seen the same christians remain out of church but they are hanging onto Jesus because He hung onto them.Others are not yet at that stage.

The context of denying is reigning.. that's how I have always seen it. If we deny him, he will deny us.. deny us what? Reigning with him, because if we deny him, we have not suffered with him, so we cannot reign with him.

Luke those believers that are denied a reign with him,what actually happens to them?are they just part of the general populance without a role?

(11-09-2009 12:54 AM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]The context of denying is reigning.. that's how I have always seen it. If we deny him, he will deny us.. deny us what? Reigning with him, because if we deny him, we have not suffered with him, so we cannot reign with him.

Oh, that's good!!!! Thank you.

Where do the unfaithful Christians go then? Zane Hodges & Joseph Dillow teach this "millenial exclusion" and Joseph Faust actually believes they go to Hell for a thousand years...

I don't see that in scripture myself. In fact, I think it completely contradicts many verses such as "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life", and "hath not appointed us to wrath" etc.