AV Bible Believers Fellowship

Mod Note: This post has been copied from another thread and edited with references to that thread removed in order to start a new thread on the nature and definition of sin. The entire post remains intact in the thread in which it was originally posted.

To be perfectly honest, I don't have a clear cut handle on what sin is. There are some things that are obviously sins to me because they are clearly identified as such in the Bible, homosexuality for instance, but often, I'm left guessing.

When I was a Catholic, it was very easy to get a grip on sin. If the Pope says it's a sin, it's a sin. Simple. The RCC has it all mapped out and even has categories of sin, e.g., mortal and venial. It was so easy and thoughtless. Birth control was a sin, period. A particular movie or book was a sin, period.

When I gave up Catholicism I was at sea. I asked my teacher in a Protestant Bible class what was sin. I knew the classic "missing the mark" concept, but what mark? Specifically? My teacher gave me a glazed look and told me to do a word study in the Bible. Sigh.

I still don't know what sin is, other than, as I said, the obvious one's specifically identified as such in the Bible.

It just isn't as easy as the RCC or Pharisees or I want it to be.

I guess I must rely on my relationship with my Father and ask Him directly and personally what He thinks about any given situation and hope my flesh doesn't get in the way. I sometimes rely on the counsel of Christians I trust. Lately I've been doing 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," multiple times a day as new things from my past and present come to my mind. And sometimes, to be perfectly honest, I ask Him to forgive me the sins I can't remember and more importantly, don't even know are sins because I am so clueless.

It just baffles me. Christians could debate for days whether dancing is a sin, and that is something that David specifically does in the Bible (although David sins plenty in the Bible, so he is no guide, but you know what I mean). Or the pearl question I asked earlier. The Bible specifically tells women not to wear pearls, but there are godly (I think) explanations as to why it's okay.

I'm not even talking about legalism here. I don't have a handle on a basic working practical specific intrinsic definition of sin, per se, when it comes to lots of things.

I ask God to forgive me because I'm in the "know not what I do" category a lot of the time.

"Missing the mark" is only half of the classic concept. The other half is "of God's perfection" because He sets the standard of perfection that we need to achieve to enter Heaven.

Sin is not only what we do that displeases God, it's what we don't do:

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Hence the reason we can only achieve Heaven through Jesus Christ. He alone meets God's standard of perfection, the standard we need. He took on our sin that we might take on His perfection as the only way to the Father.

In addition to what has already been written, I would like to submit the following.

In the most basic sense, sin is the transgression of the law, to do that which God has forbidden.

Leviticus 5:17  And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

1 John 3:4  ¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

But then God also reveals these

Proverbs 21:4  ¶An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Proverbs 24:9  The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Romans 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1 John 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And finally, the Master said...
John 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

(08-25-2010 10:25 AM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]In addition to what has already been written, I would like to submit the following.

In the most basic sense, sin is the transgression of the law, to do that which God has forbidden.

Leviticus 5:17  And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

1 John 3:4  ¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

But then God also reveals these

Proverbs 21:4  ¶An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Proverbs 24:9  The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Romans 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1 John 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And finally, the Master said...
John 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

If sin is only the transgression of the law, then I don't understand this:

Romans 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So sin was in the world before the law was given. What is sin?

I think I get the point that since Adam's sin caused all to die, Christ's triumph over sin can be applied by faith to cause all to live. But what is sin, per se? Is it something we inherit in our DNA? Is it something in the air? Does it have dimension? Is it something that permeates the entire 3D world? Is the fallen world soaked in something called sin? Will my dog die because of Adam's sin? Is the noun called sin sometimes confused with the verb called sin?

Thanks for your help.

Rom 7:7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:7 pretty well sums up sin. I have always had a compact explanation for sin, S.I.N. = "self indulgent nature", that which always seeks to please self, and not God.

(08-26-2010 03:25 AM)Lynne Wrote: [ -> ]If sin is only the transgression of the law, then I don't understand this:

Romans 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Prior to the Mosaic Law (the laws and ordinances give by Moses) there was still Law. Moses codified the law and created many ordinances to go along with it, but the Law existed before Moses. In the garden, the Law was don't eat the fruit. But carefully consider this...

Quote:Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

God placed within the heart of Man his natural law, which explains why even the most basic and crude tribal cultures recognize that it is wrong to kill someone, it is wrong to take someone else's property, it is wrong to mess around with someone else's spouse. They have never heard of the Bible or Moses or Jesus, but they do by nature the things contained in the law, because God put it in the heart of Man. Additionally they punish the transgression of the law.

(08-26-2010 03:25 AM)Lynne Wrote: [ -> ]So sin was in the world before the law was given. What is sin?

I think I get the point that since Adam's sin caused all to die, Christ's triumph over sin can be applied by faith to cause all to live. But what is sin, per se? Is it something we inherit in our DNA? Is it something in the air? Does it have dimension? Is it something that permeates the entire 3D world? Is the fallen world soaked in something called sin? Will my dog die because of Adam's sin? Is the noun called sin sometimes confused with the verb called sin?

Thanks for your help.

Sin was in the Devil and the devil was around before God forbid the eating of the fruit, so yes, sin was in the world before the law was given to Man and certainly before it was codified by Moses.

Jesus went further than the law and not only are our actions under scrutiny, but now even our motives and intentions are up for judgment. Jesus confirmed the Old Testament law of thou shalt not commit adultery, but then went beyond that and told us that if we look with the intent of lust, we commit adultery in our hearts. Jesus confirmed the Old Testament law of thou shalt not kill, but then went beyond that and told us that if we have hatred in our heart, we are guilty of murder. Sin is a heart issue

Sin does indeed affect the whole creation, it affects the plants and the animals. We are living on a sin wrecked planet that was designed to be without sin. It is like driving your car with dirty oil and gas, it may run and but the longer you let it go the worse the problem will become until it just dies. The planet is dying because of sin and someday soon, Jesus is going to end the suffering, he is going to put the planet back in order, but only for a short time (1000 years). Then God is going to destroy the earth, and make a new one. Every creature alive knows that the earth is sick and every creature is anxiously awaiting the redemption.

Quote:Romans 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I hope this helps.

(08-24-2010 08:32 PM)Lynne Wrote: [ -> ]I guess I must rely on my relationship with my Father and ask Him directly and personally what He thinks about any given situation and hope my flesh doesn't get in the way. I sometimes rely on the counsel of Christians I trust. Lately I've been doing 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," multiple times a day as new things from my past and present come to my mind. And sometimes, to be perfectly honest, I ask Him to forgive me the sins I can't remember and more importantly, don't even know are sins because I am so clueless.

In the personal, individual, intimate sense, sister, we're all kinda clueless at times. But the clues are there in the Bible, and Daniel is doing a magnificent job of handling this subject: I can't thank him enough for his contributions. I like Samuel's definition, too, which I had not heard before.

1 John 1:9 is the most frequently-prayed prayer of my life, and has been since the day I was saved. I pray it at least once a day, and have prayed it this morning. Not as a ritual, like a Hail Mary; but as a confession, an honest plea for forgiveness. And the glory of that verse is that it does cover the "cluelessness:" if we confess the sins of which we're aware, He cleanses us from all the rest, too. I pray this so frequently because I simply have to keep "short accounts" with God. If I've sinned, and am aware of it, I can't even sit down and enjoy a book or a meal until I've dealt with it.

Quote:It just baffles me. Christians could debate for days whether dancing is a sin, and that is something that David specifically does in the Bible (although David sins plenty in the Bible, so he is no guide, but you know what I mean). Or the pearl question I asked earlier. The Bible specifically tells women not to wear pearls, but there are godly (I think) explanations as to why it's okay.

Well, you have to use common sense, which you're already doing; and you have to rightly divide the word. Yes, David danced; and his lovely bride ridiculed him for it. But that wasn't a social dance. I know about the hora and the Jewish traditional same-sex dances; but you'll be hard-pressed to find an example of mixed social dancing in the Bible. Does that make it a sin?

Well, it's not a sin for me, because I always hated it as an unsaved man, and so getting saved provided me with a handy excuse not to do it! But it's an individual thing. I wouldn't preach against social dancing, per se; but I wouldn't approve of such dances in the church, either. Does dancing lead to sex, for young people? Sure. So does attending football games or doing homework together. But if a "Christian university" sponsors dances, I instantly rule it out as a legitimately spiritual institution. It's worldly as Hell.

The thing about pearls, which also applies to coral, is the same sort of thing as 1 Peter 3:3. Does that verse forbid women to wear gold jewelry? (The traditional Pentecostals think it does.) Well, then, it also forbids a woman to wear clothes, so I suppose Christian women should wander around naked. No "putting on of apparel," right?

That's what I mean about common sense.

But I realize, dear sister, that these were merely examples of what you're thinking about.

It's very important to realize the difference between original sin (not in the Catholic sense, but in the scriptural sense of Romans 3) and individual sins that we commit or don't commit. Every child that's born is a sinner by nature; later, we become sinners by choice and by practice.

I'm just reflecting, just jabbering away here. Daniel is explaining the scriptural principles very well, and I don't want to detract from his exposition.

(08-26-2010 08:21 AM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]Sin was in the Devil and the devil was around before God forbid the eating of the fruit, so yes, sin was in the world before the law was given to Man and certainly before it was codified by Moses.

Does my dog die (just a concrete example I can put my finger on; dear little Finny is fine) because of the Devil's sin or Adam's?

(08-26-2010 08:21 AM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I hope this helps.

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

(08-26-2010 03:30 PM)Lynne Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-26-2010 08:21 AM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]Sin was in the Devil and the devil was around before God forbid the eating of the fruit, so yes, sin was in the world before the law was given to Man and certainly before it was codified by Moses.

Does my dog die (just a concrete example I can put my finger on; dear little Finny is fine) because of the Devil's sin or Adam's?

It wasn't until Adam and Mrs. Adam broke the rule that death came into the world by sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)

It wasn't just man that was affected by sin, the world was too. The ground is cursed (Genesis 3:17), and the creation groans:

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (Romans 8:22)

(08-26-2010 12:27 PM)William Wrote: [ -> ]Well, you have to use common sense, which you're already doing; and you have to rightly divide the word. Yes, David danced; and his lovely bride ridiculed him for it. But that wasn't a social dance. I know about the hora and the Jewish traditional same-sex dances; but you'll be hard-pressed to find an example of mixed social dancing in the Bible. Does that make it a sin?

Well, it's not a sin for me, because I always hated it as an unsaved man, and so getting saved provided me with a handy excuse not to do it! But it's an individual thing. I wouldn't preach against social dancing, per se; but I wouldn't approve of such dances in the church, either. Does dancing lead to sex, for young people? Sure. So does attending football games or doing homework together. But if a "Christian university" sponsors dances, I instantly rule it out as a legitimately spiritual institution. It's worldly as Hell.

The thing about pearls, which also applies to coral, is the same sort of thing as 1 Peter 3:3. Does that verse forbid women to wear gold jewelry? (The traditional Pentecostals think it does.) Well, then, it also forbids a woman to wear clothes, so I suppose Christian women should wander around naked. No "putting on of apparel," right?

That's what I mean about common sense.

But I realize, dear sister, that these were merely examples of what you're thinking about.

Yes, they are examples, but also real questions I have. I use them as examples, instead of far fetched abstract illustrations, in order to help my thinking and clarify my questions, so I hope it's okay to follow up with you in a concrete way. I love the ballet. That is, I love to watch the ballet -- I'm too old for anything else; I am not a pitiful Zelda Fitzgerald. I have experienced transcendent spiritual moments as a direct result of watching ballet. There is not one single thing social or sexual about watching ballet for me (although I am aware that in the beginning of the development of the dance there were murky undertones of girlfriends of big wigs being placed in the ballet section of an opera, for example. I love opera too.) So for Christians who think dancing is a sin and not just that there are sin connotations to dancing (and certainly there are, I'm thinking of the obvious, i.e. striptease) does it mean all dance including watching ballet performances?

As you all know, I'm not a Baptist and some of you are the only Baptists I know, and I have only dim ideas of what some Baptists believe, and I realize there are many variations, so if this is a dumb question, please forgive me.

And, I attended a megachurch that often had dance performances as part of the service. And little plays, as well. This really bugged me, especially the dancing.