AV Bible Believers Fellowship

I don't know where to put this thread, I'm guessing here. I loathe Greek and I never make any reference to it from the pulpit, except to make fun of Bible correctors.

But I have a sincere question and would appreciate some discussion from those with some knowledge on the subject.

1 Timothy 2:7 & 2 Timothy 1:11 are both written by Paul to Timothy (Hey, am I good or what? I've figured that much out on my own). Both verses are saying something very similar. Both verses contain the same Greek word that is translated in one verse as "ordained" and in the other as "appointed".

Obviously I do not think for a moment that it is a mistake. So my question is why? The only conclusion that I can arrive at, is that the translators wanted to give us an alternate word. In other words, they wanted to show us that appointed can be substituted for ordained and vice versa.

I believe that ordain, like inspire, is one of those words to which mystical definitions have been attached, causing the word to mean much more than it actually does. When I think of ordain, because of my upbringing, I automatically attach to the word rules and qualifications and ceremony. Yet the same thing does not happen when I think of appoint.

So should I be associating rules and qualifications and ceremony to appoint, or should I be disassociating those things from ordain? For if they are the same, they cannot be different.

(08-24-2010 05:07 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]1 Timothy 2:7 & 2 Timothy 1:11 are both written by Paul to Timothy (Hey, am I good or what? I've figured that much out on my own). Both verses are saying something very similar. Both verses contain the same Greek word that is translated in one verse as "ordained" and in the other as "appointed".

I do not know any Greek, but if you are interested, I'll give you my thoughts on 'ordain' and 'appoint'.

The word 'ordain' is used twice in the NT, in 1 Corinthians 7:17, and Titus 1:5:

"But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." (1 Corinthians 7:17-23)

Paul ordains in all churches...what does he ordain? Those whom the Lord has called, as they are. They are to abide in the same calling, that they were in when the Lord called them...called them for what? To walk as they were, to abide as they were, but as the servants of Christ.

Now, the Titus passage:

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Titus 1:5-9)

Titus is to ordain elders, in every city. It appears that in this passage, Paul is saying to ordain elders as bishops. There doesn't appear to be any mention of being 'called' in this passage.

What is a bishop or elder?

The office of a bishop appears to be the leader of a church. See 1 Timothy 3. Aside from the Titus passage, and a passage in 1 Peter 2 about Christ being our Bishop, that's it. There's nothing else to indicate what a bishop is.

And an elder? Well, there are several passages in the NT about elders, but about rebuking an elder, or elder women, etc. The only passage I can find that seems to indicate being an elder in a position of responsibility in the church is as follows:

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:1-3)

This is written by Peter, not Paul, and in it Peter speaks of elders being just that, elder believers, older in the faith. Elders are to feed the flock, and to be ensamples to younger believers. They are not to 'lord' over them, either.

So, is ordaining a special ceremony, creating some special position, or promoting an elder into a ruling rank? I don't see it here.

What about 'appoint'?

Two times in the NT when the word 'appoint' is used, it is used in a negative way, about appointing people punishment.

Then it is used to give a kingdom, as in Luke 22:9.

The final way it is used I think is closer to what we are looking for, to place someone in a position of authority:

"Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business." (Acts 6:2-3)

They are not listed as being elders, but as being honest, full of the Holy Ghost, having wisdom. They are to minister to others, in order to give the apostles the time to dedicate to prayer and ministry.

So, what does this long post tell us?

Paul ordains as people are 'called'.

Titus is told to ordain 'elders'. There is no mention of being 'called'.

The 'deacons' of the early church were chosen or 'appointed' by basis of their walk. No mention of being called or 'elders'.

I don't think there is any real difference between the uses of these two words, based upon my somewhat brief study this evening.

My

Well for starters, I checked two versions that preceded the King James, the Bishops and Geneva, and they translated it the same way.

As far as the Greek goes, the words are exactly the same- aorist (past), first person and the first 7 words in the sentence match word for word. Thayer and Strong both give ordain and appoint as definitions. As far as the English definitions, Websters 1828 each word definition lists the other word in its definition. So basically they are synonyms.

Of course you already know the easy answer, the Lord wanted it that way. But from a human stand point you could say that the King James translators were following their predecessors.

The critics and naysayers love these passages and accuse the King James of inconsistency in translation by not translating a word uniformly. But they are hypocrites because their favorite versions do the exact same thing with other words.

Now you're left right where you started. Why? Beats me!!!

(08-24-2010 05:07 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I believe that ordain, like inspire, is one of those words to which mystical definitions have been attached, causing the word to mean much more than it actually does. When I think of ordain, because of my upbringing, I automatically attach to the word rules and qualifications and ceremony. Yet the same thing does not happen when I think of appoint.

So should I be associating rules and qualifications and ceremony to appoint, or should I be disassociating those things from ordain? For if they are the same, they cannot be different.

This is a fascinating discussion. It is also very interesting to me, Brother Daniel, that our personal, subjective impressions of the word "ordain" are so completely different. I don't mean the Greek or the English meanings of the word: I mean our impressions, the connotations that the words have for us individually.

When I think of "ordain," I don't think of rules and qualifications and ceremony. (Of course, those things come to mind when I think of "ordination.") Rather, I think of an authority or task being laid upon someone by God Himself. I think of Isaiah's "ordaining" not as the coal being laid on his lips in chapter six, but as 49:1: Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

I know, I know: I'm appearing to confuse the "call" with the "ordaining." I know the difference; I'm just trying to say that the word arouses different thoughts in me than in you. Maybe I'm just proving your point about the "mystical definition."

As to the difference between the two words, I have to give it some thought. It may just be a literary device, like a hendiades; or it might be something else. I'm not enough of a Hebrew student, or even an English student, to say for sure.

All very interesting replies.

Yes William, I believe that your impression of the word is just as embellished as mine.

I would like to throw this into the mix. I find it especially interesting the reference to Jeroboam.

Quote:Ordain (1913 Websters)
Ordain Or*dain", v. t. [imp. & p. p. Ordained; p. pr. & vb.
n. Ordaining.] [OE. ordeinen, OF. ordener, F. ordonner, fr.
L. ordinare, from ordo, ordinis, order. See Order, and cf.
Ordinance.]

1. To set in order; to arrange according to rule; to
regulate; to set; to establish. "Battle well ordained."
--Spenser.

The stake that shall be ordained on either side.
--Chaucer.

2. To regulate, or establish, by appointment, decree, or law;
to constitute; to decree; to appoint; to institute.

Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month. --1
Kings xii. 32.

And doth the power that man adores ordain
Their doom ? --Byron.

3. To set apart for an office; to appoint.

Being ordained his special governor. --Shak.

For curiosity's sake, I looked up both words in the modern English, from Merriam-Webster online:

Quote:Definition of ORDAIN
transitive verb
1
: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority
2
a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people...do ordain and establish this Constitution - United States Constitution> b : destine, foreordain
intransitive verb
: to issue an order
- or·dain·er noun
- or·dain·ment\-ˈdān-mənt\ noun
Examples of ORDAIN

1. She is an ordained minister.
2. The process was ordained by law.

Origin of ORDAIN
Middle English ordeinen, from Anglo-French ordener, ordeiner, from Late Latin ordinare, from Latin, to put in order, appoint, from ordin-, ordo order
First Known Use: 14th century

Quote:ap·point
\ə-ˈpȯint\ verb
Definition of APPOINT
transitive verb
1
a : to fix or set officially <appoint a trial date> b : to name officially <will appoint her director of the program> c archaic : arrange d : to determine the disposition of (an estate) to someone by virtue of a power of appointment
2
: to provide with complete and usually appropriate or elegant furnishings or equipment <a beautifully appointed room>
intransitive verb
: to exercise a power of appointment
Examples of APPOINT

1. She was appointed professor of chemistry at the university.
2. After his parents died, the boy's uncle was appointed as his guardian.
3. Every year, the group appoints three new members.
4. a committee appointed by Congress
5. the company's newly appointed assistant director

Origin of APPOINT
Middle English, from Anglo-French appointer, from a- (from Latin ad-) + point point
First Known Use: 14th century

The first mention that I have in scripture of the word "ordain" is:

1Ch 9:22 All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.

To me, ordain and appoint are synonymous, but ordain has more of a religious connotation.

(08-25-2010 09:37 AM)Laura Wrote: [ -> ]To me, ordain and appoint are synonymous, but ordain has more of a religious connotation.

That is true for most people and has been for several generations now, that is my point. But should it be so? I believe that because a religious connotation has been placed upon the word, that it has come to mean more than was intended.

From what I can tell, there is nothing inherently religious about ordain, and by looking at older dictionaries, it seems the common usage was more prevalent than ecclesiastical usage. I also find it interesting that it is rooted in order and means to set in order.

I just noticed that this verse gives both the word and definition. Ordain is to set in order.

Titus 1:5  ¶For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee

(08-25-2010 10:47 AM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-25-2010 09:37 AM)Laura Wrote: [ -> ]To me, ordain and appoint are synonymous, but ordain has more of a religious connotation.

That is true for most people and has been for several generations now, that is my point. But should it be so? I believe that because a religious connotation has been placed upon the word, that it has come to mean more than was intended.

From what I can tell, there is nothing inherently religious about ordain, and by looking at older dictionaries, it seems the common usage was more prevalent than ecclesiastical usage. I also find it interesting that it is rooted in order and means to set in order.

I just noticed that this verse gives both the word and definition. Ordain is to set in order.

Titus 1:5  ¶For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee

Right. Sounds like we're on the same page. Based on the first mention of "ordain" in 1 Chron 9:22, ordain (scripturally) means the same thing as appoint. Or that's what I get out of it, anyway.

So in answer to your original question

Daniel Wrote:So should I be associating rules and qualifications and ceremony to appoint, or should I be disassociating those things from ordain? For if they are the same, they cannot be different.

it sounds like we should disassociate rules and qualifications and ceremony from ordain.

(08-25-2010 09:37 AM)Laura Wrote: [ -> ]For curiosity's sake, I looked up both words in the modern English, from Merriam-Webster online:

Quote:Definition of ORDAIN
transitive verb
1
: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority
2
a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people...do ordain and establish this Constitution - United States Constitution> b : destine, foreordain
intransitive verb
: to issue an order
- or·dain·er noun
- or·dain·ment\-ˈdān-mənt\ noun
Examples of ORDAIN

1. She is an ordained minister.
2. The process was ordained by law.

Origin of ORDAIN
Middle English ordeinen, from Anglo-French ordener, ordeiner, from Late Latin ordinare, from Latin, to put in order, appoint, from ordin-, ordo order
First Known Use: 14th century

Quote:ap·point
\ə-ˈpȯint\ verb
Definition of APPOINT
transitive verb
1
a : to fix or set officially <appoint a trial date> b : to name officially <will appoint her director of the program> c archaic : arrange d : to determine the disposition of (an estate) to someone by virtue of a power of appointment
2
: to provide with complete and usually appropriate or elegant furnishings or equipment <a beautifully appointed room>
intransitive verb
: to exercise a power of appointment
Examples of APPOINT

1. She was appointed professor of chemistry at the university.
2. After his parents died, the boy's uncle was appointed as his guardian.
3. Every year, the group appoints three new members.
4. a committee appointed by Congress
5. the company's newly appointed assistant director

Origin of APPOINT
Middle English, from Anglo-French appointer, from a- (from Latin ad-) + point point
First Known Use: 14th century

The first mention that I have in scripture of the word "ordain" is:

1Ch 9:22 All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.

To me, ordain and appoint are synonymous, but ordain has more of a religious connotation.

Yes. Not just religious, but really spiritual. I know all about ordination committes, but they're just instruments of God. The President can appoint a White House Chaplain (although no President ever has; maybe Obama will appoint an Imam); but only God could ordain that man to the ministry (although God doesn't ordain imams).

Daniel's reference to Jereboam was very interesting.

Groucho Marx would have said, "A child of five could easily understand this. Somebody fetch me a child of five!"

How about definitions from 1828 Webster's Dictionary


Ordain (Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English)
ORDA'IN, v.t. [L. ordino, from ordo, order.]
1. Properly, to set; to establish in a particular office or order; hence, to invest with a ministerial function or sacerdotal power; to introduce and establish or settle in the pastoral office with the customary forms and solemnities; as, to ordain a minister of the gospel. In America, men are ordained over a particular church and congregation, or as evangelists without the charge of a particular church, or as deacons in the episcopal church.
2. To appoint; to decree.
Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month. 1 Ki 12.
As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
Acts 13.
3. To set; to establish; to institute; to constitute.
Mulmutius ordained our laws.
4. To set apart for an office; to appoint.
Jesus ordained twelve that they should be with him. Mark 3.
5. To appoint; to prepare.
For Tophet is ordained of old. Isa 30.
-------------------------------------------
Appoint (Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English)
APPOINT', v.t.
1. To fix; to settle; to establish; to make fast.
When he appointed the foundations of the earth. Prov 8.
2. To constitute, ordain, or fix by decree, order or decision.
Let Pharoah appoint officers over the land. Gen 41.
He hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world. Acts 17.
3. To allot, assign or designate.
Aaron and his sons shall appoint every one to his service. Num 4.
These cities were appointed for all the children of Israel. Josh 20.
4. To purpose or resolve; to fix the intention.
For so he had appointed. Acts 20.
5. To ordain, command or order.
Thy servants are ready to do whatever my Lord the King shall appoint. 2 Sam 15.
6. To settle; to fix, name or determine by agreement; as, they appointed a time and place for the meeting.