AV Bible Believers Fellowship

I John 3:12, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Dan. 2:43, "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Gen 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Job 1:6, " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

Job 38:6-7, "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

I'm not saying anything, just putting some verses in here!

(07-22-2010 02:32 PM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]I John 3:12, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Dan. 2:43, "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Gen 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Job 1:6, " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

Job 38:6-7, "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

I'm not saying anything, just putting some verses in here!

Weenie! Chicken! Bwauk bwauk bwauk! Schworer is a big sissy! Why not just come out and say it?

The question of Judas' parentage was raised in another thread. There are various theories, I gather, about who Judas' father was: one of these theories, which I find very interesting, is that he was the direct offspring of Satan himself.

Now, I'm not saying that this is true. I'm not even saying that I believe it; frankly, I don't know whether to believe it or not. I would never claim it to be a fact, or that is scripturally clear. But I don't rule it out, either, because there would be some precedent for it, as indicated by the verses Brother Rick quoted ... and others.

I'll explain presently, unless someone else cares to do it.

(07-22-2010 04:40 PM)William Wrote: [ -> ]Weenie! Chicken! Bwauk bwauk bwauk! Schworer is a big sissy! Why not just come out and say it?

Because it's really, really, really weird and I don't think I believe it even though there are some verses in there that...

(07-22-2010 02:32 PM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]I John 3:12, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."
(Genesis 4:1-2)

There is an interesting question here. In I John 3:12 Cain is said to be "of that wicked one" but is also Abel's brother. If Abel was of Adam, then how could his brother, Cain, be of the wicked one? Was not Adam Cain's father as well? Let's look at a couple of facts:

In Genesis 4:1-2 the Spirit says that Adam had conjugal relations with Eve, and she conceived, and bare Cain. Then there is NO MENTION of a repeat on the conjugal act, and she then bares Abel. This tells us we can assume that she bare two children from the single coupling: First Cain, then Abel, born at the same time. We would also tend to assume that Adam was the father of both children. But 1 John 3:12 says otherwise.

So, who was Cain's father and how was he conceived? If Abel was of the seed of Adam, then was there another seed-line for Cain? There had to be, otherwise how is 1 John 3:12 true? How did that different seed-line produce Cain? The Bible mentions these different lines:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15).

Then, after Cain kills Abel, Adam once again has relations with Eve and she bares Seth.

"And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." (Genesis 4:25)

The facts as we have them, so far, are this: However it came to pass, Eve was impregnated with two different seed-lines; one from Adam and one from "that wicked one" and gave birth to two brothers, born at the same time, with one's father being Adam and the other brother's father as someone else (that wicked one).

The inescapable truth revealed by these facts is that, somehow, Eve was also impregnated by both Adam and someone else. How that someone else injected himself into the human gene pool, at this time in human history, is not specifically mentioned, but it is inferred.

This may explain why the Lord God declared the following, specific curse on Eve and womanhood from there out:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)

As the verses Rick quoted demonstrate, the sons of God have coupled with human women in the days of Noah, and afterwards, injecting their DNA into the gene pool of mankind. Manifestations of these genetic aberrations appear as people with six fingers and toes (Goliath) and others documented by medical cases even in our times.

Now, what I find ironic, is that our Salvation is based on the Lord God accomplishing something similar, His only begotten Son, born of a virgin, who is 100% man in the flesh and 100% God, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is, God had to inject Himself into the human gene pool to provide a Savior. Of course, Jesus did not produce any fleshly offspring, Himself, but we are His offspring (offspring of the second Adam).

Edit: As brother Rick's topic name denotes, this is going Deep and may sound Weird, but must be explored in order to make sense of some things that do not make sense to the carnal world. Keep in mind this admonition:

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" (1 Corinthians 1:27-28)

That's definitely food for thought and meditation, brother.

(07-23-2010 06:42 AM)worddigger Wrote: [ -> ]We would also tend to assume that Adam was the father of both children. But 1 John 3:12 says otherwise.

I'm not sure if that is what 1 John 3.12 is saying. I think what it means when it says that Cain was 'of that wicked one' is that Cain didn't honour and obey God in the same way that Abel did (I have worded that really strangely, I hope you know what I mean!)

Earlier in the chapter, there are these verses:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

I hope my meaning is clear here. I believe that Cain was a child of the devil because of his wicked deeds, not because of any differing physical parentage.

I'm not attempting to refute any theories here, just putting this out there!!

(07-23-2010 08:07 AM)Katherine Wrote: [ -> ]I hope my meaning is clear here. I believe that Cain was a child of the devil because of his wicked deeds, not because of any differing physical parentage.

Your meaning is quite clear, and understandable. But your explanation does not address the different biological "seeds" spoken of in Genesis 3. There we are certainly dealing with differing physical parentage; a seed line of the wicked one (the serpent, beast) and the seed-line of the recently fallen man and woman.

(07-23-2010 08:17 AM)worddigger Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-23-2010 08:07 AM)Katherine Wrote: [ -> ]I hope my meaning is clear here. I believe that Cain was a child of the devil because of his wicked deeds, not because of any differing physical parentage.

Your meaning is quite clear, and understandable. But your explanation does not address the different biological "seeds" spoken of in Genesis 3. There we are certainly dealing with differing physical parentage; a seed line of the wicked one (the serpent, beast) and the seed-line of the recently fallen man and woman.

I can see what you mean. Something to ponder, definitely.

(07-23-2010 08:31 AM)Katherine Wrote: [ -> ]I can see what you mean. Something to ponder, definitely.

Please suffer me to discuss a but further this differentiation:

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:70-71)

Here Jesus is addressing 12 human men, and yet he says one of them is a devil. Not possessed by a devil, but an actual "devil." Not THE Devil, but A Devil.

Now this scene takes place before Jesus is crucified and resurrected. Which means, before anyone can be born again. The 12 men are 12 souls stuck to the flesh and blood of 12 physical men, but one of them is a "devil." So what differentiates the 11 good, but not yet born again men, from the one called a devil who is intrinsically evil within? The only difference must biological. One of them (this time Judas, and born of a human father), is something different walking among otherwise normal men. To the other men there, this Judas appears to be a normal man. But this "man" is a "bad seed."

This is a creature that appears as a man. Has the same general appearance as a man, but is the biological genetic offspring of a fallen angel, genetically passed down along with human genes from generation to generation. It is a seed that can remain dormant for several generations, then surface in an individual birth.

Angels in the Bible always appear as men (with no wings). We, as men, were made a little lower than the angels, but we have have their same physical appearance.

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." (Hebrews 13:2)

"Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation." (Daniel 9:21)

"And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night." (Genesis 19:1-2)

Angels (good or fallen) ALWAYS appear as men and they don't have wings like all the Catholic church artworks depict. And, although they are superficially the same as men (with all the same equipment), they are a different breed of beings.

(07-23-2010 06:42 AM)worddigger Wrote: [ -> ]There is an interesting question here. In I John 3:12 Cain is said to be "of that wicked one" but is also Abel's brother. If Abel was of Adam, then how could his brother, Cain, be of the wicked one? Was not Adam Cain's father as well? Let's look at a couple of facts:

In Genesis 4:1-2 the Spirit says that Adam had conjugal relations with Eve, and she conceived, and bare Cain. Then there is NO MENTION of a repeat on the conjugal act, and she then bares Abel. This tells us we can assume that she bare two children from the single coupling: First Cain, then Abel, born at the same time. We would also tend to assume that Adam was the father of both children. But 1 John 3:12 says otherwise.

So, who was Cain's father and how was he conceived? If Abel was of the seed of Adam, then was there another seed-line for Cain? There had to be, otherwise how is 1 John 3:12 true? How did that different seed-line produce Cain? The Bible mentions these different lines:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15).

Then, after Cain kills Abel, Adam once again has relations with Eve and she bares Seth.

"And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." (Genesis 4:25)

The facts as we have them, so far, are this: However it came to pass, Eve was impregnated with two different seed-lines; one from Adam and one from "that wicked one" and gave birth to two brothers, born at the same time, with one's father being Adam and the other brother's father as someone else (that wicked one).

The inescapable truth revealed by these facts is that, somehow, Eve was also impregnated by both Adam and someone else. How that someone else injected himself into the human gene pool, at this time in human history, is not specifically mentioned, but it is inferred.

I think that's perfectly reasonable, and highly likely. It is also a well-known fact that twins can be conceived seperately, as much as two weeks apart: thus, the possibility of an unmentioned coupling, with an unmentioned being, is perfectly possible. I think you've got it right, and that Satan was Cain's father. This is not something I would hold forth as Bible doctrine, and I don't claim to be certain of it; but John 3:12 is very relevant to the passage, as you say.

Quote:This may explain why the Lord God declared the following, specific curse on Eve and womanhood from there out:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)

Maybe, maybe not. I've always figured that pain in childbirth, and other female complications, were the result of Eve's sin in eating the fruit, just as Adam's curse was to work for a living. I'm not sure Eve's punishment was the result of her illicit relations with the Serpent, if they occurred.

Quote:As the verses Rick quoted demonstrate, the sons of God have coupled with human women in the days of Noah, and afterwards, injecting their DNA into the gene pool of mankind. Manifestations of these genetic aberrations appear as people with six fingers and toes (Goliath) and others documented by medical cases even in our times.

Yes, exactly right. Not everyone believes that Genesis 6 refers to angelic cohabitation with human women (Scofield didn't, for example), but I do. I think it's the only interpretation that is consistent with the rest of scripture.

Quote:Now, what I find ironic, is that our Salvation is based on the Lord God accomplishing something similar, His only begotten Son, born of a virgin, who is 100% man in the flesh and 100% God, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is, God had to inject Himself into the human gene pool to provide a Savior. Of course, Jesus did not produce any fleshly offspring, Himself, but we are His offspring (offspring of the second Adam).

I would only quarrel with the words "into the human gene pool." Jesus' incarnation was unique, and He produced no physical offspring, so God's presence in the gene pool was limited to 33 1/2 years, plus the time of His gestation.

I'm very glad you've laid this groundwork, brother, because it's exactly what we're talking about when we talk of the Son of Perdition. Which we will do in a later post. Thanks!