AV Bible Believers Fellowship

I've been wanting to write something about Pharisees and Sadducees, the only thing is for every one real Pharisee out there you have about a hundred Sadducees. I have had experiances with people who have been called hypocrites for having higher standards, and they might have been inconsistant at times, but their heart was still right.

Typically, people who are called Pharisees just have more standards than those who are doing the name calling.

Anyways, this brings me to my point. I'd like a couple examples from you guys about real, bonified Pharisees. There are about 50 cliched phrases from the Sadducee group, such as "Legalism!", "You think you're just better than everyone else!", "You're a holier-than-thou!", etc... but what sort of cliched phrases do the real life Pharisees use? I know they're out there.... I just have extremely limited experiance with them.

(07-14-2010 09:42 AM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]I've been wanting to write something about Pharisees and Sadducees, the only thing is for every one real Pharisee out there you have about a hundred Sadducees. I have had experiances with people who have been called hypocrites for having higher standards, and they might have been inconsistant at times, but their heart was still right.

Typically, people who are called Pharisees just have more standards than those who are doing the name calling.

Anyways, this brings me to my point. I'd like a couple examples from you guys about real, bonified Pharisees. There are about 50 cliched phrases from the Sadducee group, such as "Legalism!", "You think you're just better than everyone else!", "You're a holier-than-thou!", etc... but what sort of cliched phrases do the real life Pharisees use? I know they're out there.... I just have extremely limited experiance with them.

Well Brother, in my experience, the Phariseeical believer is one who is a self proclaimed authority and last word in standards for all who he sees to judge.

* he will have to pray for it to get done right
*he tells what is acceptable attire and what is not( clothesline preaching)
*he will tell you what doctrine is to be followed and what is heresy
* he will only recognize churches that bear his seal of approval
*thinks that prayer that gets the job done must be paved with months or years of devotion and practice otherwise you are a slacker and God will not hear you
*rigidly holds to the old ways and has no tolerance or patience for disrespectful youth and frivolous discussion on what he is already the expert on
*excepts every experience as a move of God because God is surely with him because of his faithfulness to God and perfection of sinless devotion
* emits an attitude of self abasement and false humility that he assures himself is genuine anointed mind of Christ..has contempt for all the things others have that he doesn't because they're worldly and he himself is humble and God centered.
* has to lead or set the tone of the service, or otherwise will move on to a sect that will recognize his anointing and expertise, and has the same mental image of what a true Christian is and believes.

Does this make sense, or am I off base?

Good points!

(07-14-2010 09:42 AM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]Anyways, this brings me to my point. I'd like a couple examples from you guys about real, bonified Pharisees. There are about 50 cliched phrases from the Sadducee group, such as "Legalism!", "You think you're just better than everyone else!", "You're a holier-than-thou!", etc... but what sort of cliched phrases do the real life Pharisees use? I know they're out there.... I just have extremely limited experiance with them.

I've heard quite a few, although I want to re-emphasize your distinction between people who have legitimately high standards (as we all should), and genuine Pharisees. For the first group, maintaining high standards is a form of obedience and sacrifice and even service to the Lord; for the Pharisees, the standards are an end in themselves. They serve the standards, not the Lord.

I could very easily say that most of the Pharisees I've known have been IFB types, but that would be a cheap shot, and not entirely true. Some of the biggest Pharisees I've known were in the "Reformed," Calvinistic group. No one group has a monopoly on this kind of thing; after all, the original Pharisees were Jews!

Anyway, here are some of the clichés I've heard, ad nauseam, from various Pharisees. Some of them are simply nonsense; others are true, but are twisted into cliché by the knee-jerk, unthinking way that the Pharisees use them:

1. "If you're not as close to God as you used to be, guess who moved?" This makes a nice bumper sticker, and it's cute, but it can be deceptive. Very often, in periods of testing, or even periods of growth, we can't discern how close we are to the Lord. Sometimes, God leads us through the darkness; and, apart from His hand holding ours, we don't know where we're going. At such times, we don't "feel" very close to God at all. And, as we mature in the Lord, over a period of many years, the times of "feeling" His presence become less frequent. That's because He's helping us grow past feelings, into faith. Very often, we don't feel close to Him at all, and the Enemy tells us that He's withdrawn. But we should never be dismayed by darkness. Psalm 91:1: He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. It's dark in the shadow ... but we're very close. Contrary to the bumper sticker cliché, God hasn't moved, and we haven't moved ... unless it's to become closer. But some of the Pharisees insist that we should always feel close.

2. "If you're not a missionary, you're a mission field." This has an element of truth in it, when applied to carnal Christians; but it's used in two ways that are dangerous and dishonest. The IFB types use it as a guilt trip, to bludgeon people into visitation or giving to missions. (Visitation and missions are vital, but not when we're bullied or bludgeoned into them.) The Reformed people use it as a means of questioning one's salvation: "If you're not actively doing the work of the Lord, you're probably unsaved." Again, the saying has some limited truth in certain situations, but if it were an absolute truism, God would have put it in the Bible.

3. "There is no such thing as a saved Sodomite." I've heard this so many times I could scream. If it's true, then 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a lie. Often, this cliché is translated as "No Christian can commit this particular sin." This is naive and uncharitable. All of us have certain sins in our lives when we're saved, and they don't always go away overnight: drinking, gambling, bad language, whatever. But the Pharisees expect a former Sodomite to instantly forsake his or her sin when he or she is saved. That is the goal, of course, but it's not as easy as it sounds, just as kicking drugs or booze isn't always easy, even for a new Christian. It's just that this sin is so distasteful (as it should be) that the Pharisees lose all perspective and charity when dealing with it. Of course, Pharisees are not noted for their charity in the first place.

4. "God hates divorce." This is amusing to hear from a Bible believer, because it's a misquote of the King James Bible. Malachi 2:16a says For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away. I do not dispute that the verse refers to divorce, but KJB people should quote it correctly. However, since divorce is the unforgivable sin in IFB circles (moreso even than sodomy or murder), they toss the phrase around just as carelessly as a liberal who says that John 3:16 contains the gospel. The fact that God Himself is divorced does not enter their thinking. In fairness, the IFBs are not alone in their enthusiasm for this cliché.

5. "If Christ isn't Lord of all, He isn't Lord at all." This is probably the all-time howler of Pharisaical thinking and cliché-making, and is utter nonsense. It is nothing but Lordship Salvation, boiled down to bumper-sticker length. It demands perfect obedience as a proof of one's salvation, and it is the very essence of Pharisaism.

There are more, but I only have the stomach for a few at a time!

Great points William, the only one of those that I've heard before is number 5.

I do agree with number 4, I believe that God does hate the act of divorce. I hope you don't think I'm a Pharisee for believing that. I don't think God hates divorced people, or even that there aren't legitimate reasons in Scripture for divorce. I just believe that God hates divorce and even when it's allowable it's certainly no where near His perfect plan.

The reason why people preach and say "God hates divorce" is not because they're trying to misquote a Bible verse, it's because He actually does hate it. It destroys lives, and harms children. With over half of the marriages out there winding up in divorce, I appreciate strong preaching against it.

If God had it His way, He Himself would not be divorced from Israel, He hates the fact that He is, and He also has every intention of getting back together with her.

(07-14-2010 02:06 PM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]Great points William, the only one of those that I've heard before is number 5.

I do agree with number 4, I believe that God does hate the act of divorce. I hope you don't think I'm a Pharisee for believing that. I don't think God hates divorced people, or even that there aren't legitimate reasons in Scripture for divorce. I just believe that God hates divorce and even when it's allowable it's certainly no where near His perfect plan.

The reason why people preach and say "God hates divorce" is not because they're trying to misquote a Bible verse, it's because He actually does hate it. It destroys lives, and harms children. With over half of the marriages out there winding up in divorce, I appreciate strong preaching against it.

If God had it His way, He Himself would not be divorced from Israel, He hates the fact that He is, and He also has every intention of getting back together with her.

I don't doubt that God hates divorce. I merely think that many Pharisees hate it for the wrong reasons. They don't care about the families that are shattered; they only care about the reputation of their church, or the social disruption within the church. We're talking about Pharisees, not about God Himself, Who hates it (needless to say) for the right reasons. And, for the very worst Pharisees, there is an undeniable element of envy involved: if it weren't professional suicide, they'd ditch the "wife of their youth" for a newer model in a heartbeat. I also know preachers (I could name names) who would rather see a couple (in their own congregation) burning in the flames of Hell than in a divorce court.

As for the damage that divorce causes to children and others, I have been aware of it since I was nine years old.

(07-14-2010 02:18 PM)William Wrote: [ -> ]I don't doubt that God hates divorce. I merely think that many Pharisees hate it for the wrong reasons. They don't care about the families that are shattered; they only care about the reputation of their church, or the social disruption within the church. We're talking about Pharisees, not about God Himself, Who hates it (needless to say) for the right reasons. And, for the very worst Pharisees, there is an undeniable element of envy involved: if it weren't professional suicide, they'd ditch the "wife of their youth" for a newer model in a heartbeat. I also know preachers (I could name names) who would rather see a couple (in their own congregation) burning in the flames of Hell than in a divorce court.

As for the damage that divorce causes to children and others, I have been aware of it since I was nine years old.

Sorry to hear that William, my wife's parents are divorced and it's never been the same for her.

It's amazing how people look at things sometimes when they get off balance, isn't it? Like with divorce, how people overreact one way or another.

(07-14-2010 03:15 PM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry to hear that William, my wife's parents are divorced and it's never been the same for her.

It's amazing how people look at things sometimes when they get off balance, isn't it? Like with divorce, how people overreact one way or another.

Yes. But, having raised the subject as one of five Pharisaical clichés. I do not want this to become a thread on divorce. If someone wants to start such a thread, they are welcome to. But now we need to get back to your original question.

"You have to be in church every time the doors are open or you're disobeying Heb 10:25."

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Since when is the "assembling of ourselves together" restricted to church attendance?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)

This verse is quoted repeatedly by some, to 'prove' that God will send revival if we do as this verse instructs. What these people forget (unconsciously or not) is that this verse was addressed to Israel, the JEWS.

We are NOT His 'people', but as born again believers, we are 'children of God'.

Things that are different aren't necessarily the same.