I know this isn't a "Baptist Forum", but I'm a Baptist by conviction, not convenience. I believe, as far as I can tell, the historical doctrinal positions taken up by Baptists throughout history. I also appreciate the history of the Baptists and believe it is an honorable history, one that I'm proud to be a part of much like being an American. With all the different types of Baptists out there, I'm an independent, fundamental, Bible believing Baptist.
That being said, not all of the Bible fits EASILY into our Baptist theology. The vast majority does indeed fit, but occasionally one verse will pop up that is a little hard to explain. I'm opening this thread as an opportunity for us to put verses in here, and maybe together we can work them out and find explanations and solutions for these problem texts. It may require playing a little "devil's advocate", but iron sharpeneth iron...
I'll start by presenting three counters to Eternal Security:
1. Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Ok, so this is used commonly to teach that you can lose your salvation. You have someone that has been enlightened, and has partaken of the Holy Ghost, and several other things that strongly indication he was saved... falling away and unable to repent again.
2. Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
3. II Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Ok, so they use this verse to say you can lose your salvation. If you turn away from the truth, AFTER you've escaped the world through Jesus (been saved), and then are once again entangles again - it would be better off FOR YOU had NEVER known the way of righteousness?
How can that be? How can someon get saved, and then be better off if he never had ever been saved?
The only way that could be is if he got saved, jumped back into the world again and lost his salvation, only now his heart is too hard and he won't get saved again. This verse isn't talking about personal testimony, because it says it would be better for that person, if they had never gotten saved.
(06-18-2010 11:32 AM)Rick Schworer Wrote: [ -> ]I know this isn't a "Baptist Forum", but I'm a Baptist by conviction, not convenience. I believe, as far as I can tell, the historical doctrinal positions taken up by Baptists throughout history. I also appreciate the history of the Baptists and believe it is an honorable history, one that I'm proud to be a part of much like being an American. With all the different types of Baptists out there, I'm an independent, fundamental, Bible believing Baptist.
That being said, not all of the Bible fits EASILY into our Baptist theology. The vast majority does indeed fit, but occasionally one verse will pop up that is a little hard to explain. I'm opening this thread as an opportunity for us to put verses in here, and maybe together we can work them out and find explanations and solutions for these problem texts. It may require playing a little "devil's advocate", but iron sharpeneth iron...
I'll start by presenting three counters to Eternal Security:
1. Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Ok, so this is used commonly to teach that you can lose your salvation. You have someone that has been enlightened, and has partaken of the Holy Ghost, and several other things that strongly indication he was saved... falling away and unable to repent again.
2. Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
3. II Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Ok, so they use this verse to say you can lose your salvation. If you turn away from the truth, AFTER you've escaped the world through Jesus (been saved), and then are once again entangles again - it would be better off FOR YOU had NEVER known the way of righteousness?
How can that be? How can someon get saved, and then be better off if he never had ever been saved?
The only way that could be is if he got saved, jumped back into the world again and lost his salvation, only now his heart is too hard and he won't get saved again. This verse isn't talking about personal testimony, because it says it would be better for that person, if they had never gotten saved.
But Rick, you do not actually believe, do you, that this falling away applies to those under grace in this dispensation?
It depends on whether ones salvation depends on personal daily active faith and following Jesus commandments, with their sins remitted only to come back on them if they fall away..or, justification in the atonement of Jesus blood and adherance to the law imputed to us freely for sins past, present and future.
There are several examples of salvation occurring under different terms in the new Testament...Mt. 19:16 ; John 3:16 ; Mt. 7:17-23 ; Acts 2:38,39 ; Acts 8:12-19 ; Acts 10:44-47 ; Acts 19:4-6 ; Ro.3:25 ; Eph 2:4-19
What terms were we saved under? What terms of salvation is the Author of Heb. 10 and II Pe.2 referring to?
These variations or progressions of salvation are important in how one is saved, how they received the Holy Ghost, and what time period are they in .
I am also a Baptist by conviction, and not convenience. I was a Presbyterian for 13 years, and still love and respect the Presbyterians (the saved ones), while disagreeing with the doctrines I formerly accepted. It should be noted that I became a Baptist shortly after becoming a believer in the King James Bible. First, the issue of God's word had to get settled: then came the other stuff.
This promises to be a fascinating thread, and I want to respond to the two previous posts, but will have to wait until I have time to do them justice.
I have a hard time accepting the idea of the Jewish epistles being "Tribulation Epistles".
It doesn't make any sense.
How can something writen during the Church Age, to Church Age Saints, with both pratical and doctrinal lessons in them for Church Age Christians (that's how we know it was written to Jewish Christians, not just the "twelve tribes scattered...."), not be for the actual real, living, breathing, eating, sleeping people to whom it was written? How were these people who recieved the letters from James, Paul, and Peter supposed to know that they're not supposed to take them literally?
I believe who heartedly in rightly dividing Scripture. When the context is Tribulational, then by all means (Matthew 24 and 25, the book of Revelation, etc) what is being spoken of there should be applied to the Tribulation.
But to take a couple hard passages in Hebrews and Peter and to just slam them into the Tribulation - it doesn't work. James 2 is easy as pie, but people try to slam the whole book of James into the Tribulation for one little hiccup in James 2.
It's never sat well with me.
I don't see any hiccup in James 2, only people reading it wrong
People read it like this
14What doth it profit you, my brethren, though you say you hath faith, and have not works? can faith save you?
When it actually says
14What doth it profit [the poor man], my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him [the poor man]?
Remember the chapter starts with the poor man, and is all about the treatment of the poor coming into the assembly.
Also, Paul writes in Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
I am pretty much convinced that James 2 is not about salvation from Heaven or Hell, but salvation of the physical body. Which would make sense considering it is authored by James, who had a passion about the poor and gave Paul explicit instruction to help the poor (which Paul was going to do anyway).
(06-21-2010 06:25 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see any hiccup in James 2...
I never thought of it that way, I'll try to read it from that perspective and see if anything resonates with me next time.
As far as what makes sense to me, I view it like this:
"Justified" means to "show to be just", not to actually make the person just. O.J. was justified - he wasn't just he was just shown to be just.
In Romans 4, man is justified (shown to be just) in the eyes of God, by faith alone. In James 2, man is shown to be just in the eyes of man, by faith and works.
Great ones, Rick. Let me take a crack at two of my favorites.
Quote:1. Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Ok, so this is used commonly to teach that you can lose your salvation. You have someone that has been enlightened, and has partaken of the Holy Ghost, and several other things that strongly indication he was saved... falling away and unable to repent again.
2. Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
These are answered one and the same. Let's go back to the top of the page of chapter one in our Bibles and read an EXTREMELY important phrase:
The Epistle to the Hebrews
This is the defining text, as it were, for the entire epistle. The writer of this book, (Paul, in my humble opinion,) is talking to both the Hebrews who are on the brink of getting saved, and those who have embraced the faith.
When he makes a statement like, "there remaineth no more sacrifice," he is talking about for them. There is no Temple, no priestly system, no lamb for sacrifice, it has been COMPLETELY replaced by the work and person of Jesus Christ. I they, nationally, do not embrace what has come their way, they have nothing else. This is why the Lord said, " If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." The "they" is the same as the "we" here:
Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
Israel had come to the end of the road. Salvation is to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. This was the last boat. If they missed this one, there remaineth no more plans, for Christ was sacrificed ONCE.
This is a national epistle if there ever was one, that is why it is quite clearly titled, Epistle to the Hebrews.
My two cents worth,
Bro. Ben
(06-22-2010 11:08 AM)a pilgrim Wrote: [ -> ]Great ones, Rick. Let me take a crack at two of my favorites.
Quote:1. Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Ok, so this is used commonly to teach that you can lose your salvation. You have someone that has been enlightened, and has partaken of the Holy Ghost, and several other things that strongly indication he was saved... falling away and unable to repent again.
2. Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
These are answered one and the same. Let's go back to the top of the page of chapter one in our Bibles and read an EXTREMELY important phrase:
The Epistle to the Hebrews
This is the defining text, as it were, for the entire epistle. The writer of this book, (Paul, in my humble opinion,) is talking to both the Hebrews who are on the brink of getting saved, and those who have embraced the faith.
When he makes a statement like, "there remaineth no more sacrifice," he is talking about for them. There is no Temple, no priestly system, no lamb for sacrifice, it has been COMPLETELY replaced by the work and person of Jesus Christ. I they, nationally, do not embrace what has come their way, they have nothing else. This is why the Lord said, " If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." The "they" is the same as the "we" here:
Heb 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
Israel had come to the end of the road. Salvation is to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. This was the last boat. If they missed this one, there remaineth no more plans, for Christ was sacrificed ONCE.
This is a national epistle if there ever was one, that is why it is quite clearly titled, Epistle to the Hebrews.
My two cents worth,
Bro. Ben
Good points Ben! I think that works well for the Hebrews 10 verse, but could you expound a little further on the Hebrews 6 one.
Quote:1. Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
The Hebrews, who through unbelief, like at Kadesh Barnea, entered not in because of unbelief, have, by the love and providence of God, been brought to the heavenly gift by the Holy Ghost. Many have, at the point of this writing, have become partakers and tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the world to come.
God forbid that I should rewrite scripture, but let's disect this verse to understand its context:
For it is impossible...
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
Take out the filler and you see the context. Nationally, Israel had come to the point where they had to make the decision to receive this heavenly gift, or turn away in unbelief, like the Hebrew children at Kadesh-barnea.
Some believed and became a part of the New Covenant, but for those who rejected it was impossible to renew them again unto repentance because there was no other way.
To those who refused to believe the New Covenant, they were trampling under foot the blood of the covenant, and thus putting Christ to an open shame. And then, they were to go to him with fake Judas Iscariot-like repentance! Not hardly. God rejected them upon their rejection, this was the last chance.
I see what you're saying, but I get hung up on the fact that whoever it's talking about has partaken of the Holy Spirit.