06-29-2010, 12:17 PM
(06-28-2010 02:01 PM)William Wrote: [ -> ]I'll try, brother..thank you for the thought.(06-28-2010 12:19 PM)a pilgrim Wrote: [ -> ]Bro. William,
Would you please give me the clear textual basis for the teaching above in red. I have heard this, but I have not seen clear convincing scripture to support that tribulation saints have a salvation of faith and works, AND these books are the ones that teach it. Again, what text clearly shows us these books are about tribulation saints.
I checked the verses you gave and I don't see works/faith salvation in them:
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Jesus made it clear what "works" are required for salvation:
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
This is his GREAT command.
Thank you, brother, and I will answer in detail when I have a bit more time. For now, I apologize for a misquote: I did not intend to include Rev. 7:14 as a proof of faith and works. That was the momentary blunder of a distracted mind.
The reason for the blunder should be obvious. All of the new versions change the King James reading, in 22:14, from "do his commandments" to "wash their robes." My mind had fixated on that expression, so I listed 7:14. The text I meant to emphasize was 22:14.
As to which work, or works, are alluded to in 22:14, I will simply say that I disagree with your understanding of the verse. I'll explain more fully as soon as possible, and thank you and Rick Schworer, who may yet see the light of reason, for your patience.
In the meantime, I have no doubt that InnSpectre may have something of value to add.
But honestly, I am a mere novice, and oftimes a thread stealing hack.
I can only offer a piece of this puzzle at a time.
This did I stumble over, though..maybe it can help.
It is an admonishment to follow Christ's example to endure suffering while maintaining faith and righteousness, I believe, and obedience as sons.
Also, to trust in God to deliver despite how smitten they become in their trials, all the while abstaining from sin, and not losing hope, and trusting in the promise of a heavenly Kingdom.
Heb.12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
16Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from Heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also Heaven.
27And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29For our God [is] a consuming fire.
In summary, I believe what is being said is :
Lay aside all sin
Look to Jesus as an example to follow
Suffer and endure as he did
Obey and provoke not, nor despise chastisement
exercised by opposition, perfect in righteousness
Be diligent, peaceable,and holy
No unclean person may enter in, just as any unclean negligent hebrew was cut off in the wilderness..by unbelief and disobedience
The heavenly Kingdom will be received if God is served in reverence and fear
The adversaries will be destroyed
The Kingdom of Heaven obtained
This chapter can be seen to be a progression of a Tribulation Christian from salvation by faith "In " Jesus Christ, to works and obedience by learning from the things in which they suffer, just as the Lord did. I believe the "grace " mentioned in heb.12 may be the Blood atonement for sin for the remission of their sins.
