I've started up my own study on Revelation. Initially, I was going to work through Ruckman's commentary using the chart's he recommends drawing, but I thought, instead, let's go through it on my own and see what God leads.
Revelation 1-3 My chart is almost complete for this (I'll scan it and photograph it). It is not completely detailed, and focuses on the seven churches, the seven stars, and the seven characteristics of Jesus Christ.
One thing I noticed was that the seven churches are not taught Pauline doctrine. And there are specific events that could not apply today.
For example, the church of Smyrna is told God will try them 10 days in prison, and then they will be beheaded. How is this applicable to any of us today? Was it applicable historically?
ALso, Thyatera was rebuked for "suffering that woman Jezebel" - who is Jezebel? A witch that hates Israel and desires to remove that Nation.
I think it is quite evident that the seven churches are NOT church ages (although they probably can apply in a devotional sense), but rather specific churches in and around the Middle East during the tribulation - these churches specifically will be at great risk, being near Jerusalem, the throne of the Anti-Christ.
Furthermore, since Jesus is dealing almost exclusively with the Jews during the tribulation, and the Jews will be gathered back to the land, it is not surprising that the Churches dealt with are IN or NEAR the land, rather than being in America or Australia or England (since those churches will probably be completely apostate and rejecting the Jewish revelation at that time).
(10-11-2009 08:34 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, since Jesus is dealing almost exclusively with the Jews during the tribulation, and the Jews will be gathered back to the land, it is not surprising that the Churches dealt with are IN or NEAR the land, rather than being in America or Australia or England (since those churches will probably be completely apostate and rejecting the Jewish revelation at that time).
I agree with you. The 7 Churches are all located in what is now modern-day Turkey (see attached map).
This is interesting, as these Churches are along a line that separates the modern geographically Islamic world of Asia Minor from the Greek Orthodox Christian world to the west. It should also be noted that Turkey was once part of a greater Persian Empire, and that modern-day Turkey and Syria are now drifting into the sphere of influence of modern-day Iran (ancient Persia). A resurgent Persian Empire figures prominently into the latter-day prophecies found in the book of Daniel.
Let's also keep in mind that St. John received the 'Revelation' while he was in a grotto on the island of Patmos, which is directly off-shore from the Turkish coastline, where these seven Churches are located. Tradition has it that John later died while in the city of Ephesus, one of the seven cities. Just some food for thought.
I have been shown (and have seen for myself) that Scripture can be applied in three ways: doctrinally, spiritually (for us church age believers) and historically.
The seven churches in Revelation 1-3 are actual churches that existed back in John's day. They are also examples of the different church ages, and, most likely, of Tribulation churches.
I'm no scholar, but that makes sense to me. Will or William or one of the other elder brethren will probably correct or elaborate upon that. ;)
(10-12-2009 06:32 AM)Here Am I Wrote: [ -> ]I have been shown (and have seen for myself) that Scripture can be applied in three ways: doctrinally, spiritually (for us church age believers) and historically.
Quite true! But there may also a literal prophetic component at work here. Keep in mind that the area of western Turkey that borders the Aegean and the countries of Syria and Lebanon that border the Med. still today have large Christian communities and, to a lessor extent, Jewish communities. And they are minorities compared to the Muslims that live there, as well. I found it very interesting that, even today, there is a major Jewish population in southern Iran. As the originator of this thread indicated, the Tribulation focus will be in the region surrounding Israel. It is a big region.
Wait for me! Let me bookmark this thread....:idea:
(10-11-2009 08:34 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]One thing I noticed was that the seven churches are not taught Pauline doctrine. And there are specific events that could not apply today.
For example, the church of Smyrna is told God will try them 10 days in prison, and then they will be beheaded. How is this applicable to any of us today? Was it applicable historically?
ALso, Thyatera was rebuked for "suffering that woman Jezebel" - who is Jezebel? A witch that hates Israel and desires to remove that Nation.
I think it is quite evident that the seven churches are NOT church ages (although they probably can apply in a devotional sense), but rather specific churches in and around the Middle East during the tribulation - these churches specifically will be at great risk, being near Jerusalem, the throne of the Anti-Christ.
Hi, Luke (my first post here)!
I agree with you. Although there may be some historical and spiritual applications, I believe that primarily these churches will exist "on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) - during the seven-year Tribulation period.
(10-11-2009 08:34 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]For example, the church of Smyrna is told God will try them 10 days in prison, and then they will be beheaded. How is this applicable to any of us today? Was it applicable historically?
Luke, a question: I do not read anything about God saying these folks would be beheaded in that passage. It says they should be faithful unto death, but the methodology of death is not specified. What is your source on that statement?
Revelation 20:4 - perhaps they are not beheaded, but they are definitely martyred
(10-12-2009 09:38 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]Revelation 20:4 - perhaps they are not beheaded, but they are definitely martyred
Agreed, and beheading is probably the methodology used, though that is not specifically said in Revelation 1-3. The same could be implied in the death of the two witnesses:
"
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."
(Revelation 11:7-9)
It is interesting to note, that in these modern days, beheading is a form of execution practiced almost exclusively by extreme Muslim regimes. If the two witnesses spoken of in the above verse were actually beheaded, then we may have a prophetic glimpse into the Jerusalem of the tribulation times. Could it be that, at the time of this killing, that Jerusalem is under Islamic occupation and control?
Well if they are beheaded, than it's a pretty amusing resurrection, since their heads would have to pop back on (I think the Doc mentions that in revelation. It may have been a subconscious memory of that commentary)
Oh, in other news, I have Bible Believers Commentary on Matthew, The Other Side of Calvinism and Acts by Sam Gipp on their way