AV Bible Believers Fellowship

I was listening to a Knox sermon, and he said some interesting things at the end

- few there be that find it (the way)
- In the end times it would be like Noahs time (only 8 saved)
- In the end it would be like Lot's time (only 4 saved)

When the rapture comes, how many people are really actually going to go? I'm not talking about a split rapture, but how many people alive are truly born again? Would it be in the hundres of millions, or less?

IF there are 7 billion people in the world

2.2 of those consider themselves "Christian"
1.3 of those are Roman Catholic
.8 are "Protestant" - which is everything from Anglican, Presbyterian, Church of England (mostly, all the state churches) (it also includes baptist churches, but mainly baptist associations)
That leaves about 100 million "other christians" which includes Independent Baptists, SDA's Mormons, JW's, Scientoligists, Christian Science etc etc

Pastor Knox said he would be surprised if there were even a million people taken out when the rapture hit.

Most countries wouldn't even notice. What effect would it have on france? england? Japan? Sweden? New Zealand?

(01-29-2010 10:20 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]...Most countries wouldn't even notice...

Hehe, most churches wouldn't even notice, even if the rapture hit on a Sunday morning at 11:30 am.

I hope that Brother Knox is mistaken; I hope that, at this moment in time, there are more than a million saved people on earth. But he may be correct.

Of course, many saved people (I hope not a majority) aren't living for Christ, and have never truly lived for Christ, in the sense of total commitment - - - or aspiring to total commitment, which is where most of us find ourselves. They've gotten their "fire insurance," and that's all they're interested in. Even if we factor them in, however, these worldly Christians are a small fraction of the earth's population.

Say that Knox's figures are right, and that Independent Baptists are one part of a group of denominations numbering less than 100 million. Add in all the saved people in America and the West who are in other denominations: Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed, etc. The current population of the United States is around 300 million. Would anyone claim, with a straight face, that every third American is born again? How about every third Canadian? Every third Englishman? I don't believe it. If we're talking about genuinely saved people (and some of the "fire insurance" crowd aren't), then I would say one in ten Americans would be a very liberal estimate. It may be more like one in a hundred.

Without getting into a theological discussion of who's genuinely saved and who's not, it's a sobering thought. Brother Knox has a way of confronting people with sobering truths....

Good post, Brother Luke.

(01-29-2010 10:20 PM)Luke Wrote: [ -> ]Pastor Knox said he would be surprised if there were even a million people taken out when the rapture hit.

There would be more than that number of children alone who are raptured surely.Children who have not reached the age of being accountable.

Retarded people too would be pushing that number up because they too are not accountable.

When the dead in Christ rise first spanning all these centuries I bet they show themselves to many and many become instant believers on Jesus.
(that's just a little thought of mine that I can't prove but hope it is so.)

Many unchurched folk believe also,they don't have the doctrine or teaching but they believe on Jesus to save them from Hell,I do know folk like this.They do trust Jesus as their saviour and not themselves.

Most of the believers from other churches I have found truly are trusting on Jesus plus nothing to save them so I'm sure the number must be much much higher than he believes.

Let's don't write off all the Catholic's!!! Some of them are saved, somehow, they are just ignorant.

(01-30-2010 08:19 AM)Ronnie Wrote: [ -> ]Let's don't write off all the Catholic's!!! Some of them are saved, somehow, they are just ignorant.

I don't write all the Catholics off, either: I'm sure there are many saved Catholics - - - although I think it is virtually impossible for a saved Catholic to remain in the "Church" once he or she realizes what it teaches.

Mrs. Hayseed, I understand your point about certain people not being accountable for their sins. I've thought about this a lot, and I've thought about it in this particular context. But I don't know all the answers.

The Bible says that sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 5:13). This is the verse that assures me of infant salvation, and the salvation of those who are truly incapable of understanding good and evil (severe retardates, for example). However, I think that the "age of accountability," while varying from child to child, is generally much lower than we think. I believe very firmly that a child of five, or even younger, can be saved: it is only required that one understands himself to be a sinner. The notion that the "age of accountability" is anywhere near adolescence - - - I mean, that old - - - is absurd, as any parent can attest.

Retarded people are a different story. I have seen retardation in my own extended family, and know that retarded people are perfectly capable of asking the Lord to save them: unless, as I say, they are severely retarded, and can barely think at all.

Anyway, with tiny children and thinking-impaired people, we have no argument: I think God spares them, because they have no knowledge of the Law. But does that imply that they are included in the Rapture? Or does it merely (merely!) mean that they will not be damned?

I don't know. I think the Rapture might involve more than mere salvation from Hell. But I couldn't prove it, or disprove it, from scripture.

This is a very interesting topic. Brother Luke hath opened a can of worms!

I've given this question some thought from time to time, J Vernon McGee had a really low view - as far as numbers of truly saved was concerned. I think his assessment was something liks 1% of all professing, or those who called themselves Christian truly were. That could possibly be so in some places in the World.

As far as accountability? I really think that comes as soon as a person perceives right, from wrong. This comes at varying ages, but usually a child does not have to be really very old, before they start hiding the things they do. Now you might say they have learned that they will get punished, and that's why.
But does that not say they perceive right from wrong, to some degree. I really don't think a person has to have knowledge of the Commandments, before he can be guilty of sin. Does not the Bible say even before the Commandments, death because of sin reined. I think also we have to understand, this meant more than just physical death.

As far as really small children, and those incapable of thought go, I think that comes under what God said to Moses on the mountain. I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will judge whom I will.

(02-02-2010 11:29 AM)Samuel Wrote: [ -> ]I've given this question some thought from time to time, J Vernon McGee had a really low view - as far as numbers of truly saved was concerned. I think his assessment was something liks 1% of all professing, or those who called themselves Christian truly were. That could possibly be so in some places in the World.

As far as accountability? I really think that comes as soon as a person perceives right, from wrong. This comes at varying ages, but usually a child does not have to be really very old, before they start hiding the things they do. Now you might say they have learned that they will get punished, and that's why.
But does that not say they perceive right from wrong, to some degree. I really don't think a person has to have knowledge of the Commandments, before he can be guilty of sin. Does not the Bible say even before the Commandments, death because of sin reined. I think also we have to understand, this meant more than just physical death.

As far as really small children, and those incapable of thought go, I think that comes under what God said to Moses on the mountain. I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will judge whom I will.

Samuel, I take a little different spin on this. Since there is no definitive scripture on this, I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right, I'm just throwing my thoughts into the discussion. Rather than right or wrong, I teach that when a person has a knowledge of good and evil then he becomes accountable to God. Man fell when he gained the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing right from wrong does not mean that there is an understanding of good and evil. The very young and the mentally retarded may know right from wrong (even dogs and horses can be trained to know right behaviour from wrong) without really understanding the difference between good and evil. A mentally retarded person may never gain that understanding.

When that realization happens with a child may certainly vary; however, there comes a point in their life when their eyes are opened and they gain the knowledge of good and evil. It is very evident. I am always cautious when dealing with children, I never ask leading questions and always allow them to do most of the talking and explaining.

The eyes are usually the give away. Even if the child can not articulate a "good" answer explaining the difference between good and evil, it can usually been seen in the eyes. Their innocence has been lost and their understanding has been awakened. I teach that when that happens to a child, they then become accountable to God.

But like I said, that's just my take on it.

(01-30-2010 06:26 PM)William Wrote: [ -> ]The Bible says that sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 5:13). This is the verse that assures me of infant salvation, and the salvation of those who are truly incapable of understanding good and evil (severe retardates, for example). However, I think that the "age of accountability," while varying from child to child, is generally much lower than we think. I believe very firmly that a child of five, or even younger, can be saved: it is only required that one understands himself to be a sinner. The notion that the "age of accountability" is anywhere near adolescence - - - I mean, that old - - - is absurd, as any parent can attest.

Retarded people are a different story. I have seen retardation in my own extended family, and know that retarded people are perfectly capable of asking the Lord to save them: unless, as I say, they are severely retarded, and can barely think at all.

Anyway, with tiny children and thinking-impaired people, we have no argument: I think God spares them, because they have no knowledge of the Law. But does that imply that they are included in the Rapture? Or does it merely (merely!) mean that they will not be damned?

I don't know. I think the Rapture might involve more than mere salvation from Hell. But I couldn't prove it, or disprove it, from scripture.

This is a very interesting topic. Brother Luke hath opened a can of worms!

:detectiv:

Very good answer William on accountability and nice scripture to go with it. I had not yet read this post when I answered Samuel. I believe that we are in agreement here.

Concerning the rapture, I also agree that being raptured involves more than salvation from Hell. We had started a similar discussion a while back, but were hindered from finishing it. I also teach that mere salvation from Hell does not guarantee an entrance into the millennial kingdom. I believe that is the inheritance and that it can be forfeit. But anyway, that should probably be covered in another thread.